objective? that's where there's going to need to be a discussion. because over time if we're going to continue to see -- >> but do you think this could blow up into a big political fight and a distraction for the new chairman? >> >> host: short answer. >> guest: i'm not expecting it. >> host: walter mccormick and howard buskirk is with "communications daily." gentlemen, as always, thank you. >> guest: thank you. >> c-span, created by america's cable companies in 1979, brought to you as a public service by your television provider. >> coming up on c-span2, a discussion about the future of the republican party. including the need to broaden its demographic base. then live coverage from the british house of commons as prime minister david cameron and members offer their tributes to former south african president nelson mandela who died last week. after that we'll be live at the american enterprise stews for

financial -- institute. they'll be meeting to discuss implementation of the dodd-frank financial regulation law. and later, the senate returns at 2 p.m. eastern for general speeches followed later with more debate on the annual legislation authorizing defense programs and debate and a roll call vote on a judicial nomination. >> representatives from iran and six world powers will meet in vienna this week for the next round of talks concerning iran's nuclear program. we'll have analysis of the ongoing negotiations at an event hosted by the center for strategic and international studies. speakers include former national security adviser brzezinski and new york times columnist tom friedman. cbs news "face the nation" anchor bob schieffer will moderate the event. that gets underway at 5:30 p.m.

eastern over on c-span3. >> next, a look at the future of the republican party from political strategist and cnn contributor ana navarro. she talks about changes and demographics require the party to broaden its base with. she also comments on the current divisions within the party and who she thinks are the best potential candidates for winning back the white house in 2016. she spoke last month at a forum hosted by the new hampshire institute of politics at saint anselm college in manchester. this is a little over an hour. [applause] >> megan said she was thinking of brushing up on her spanish to do that introconduction, but she didn't want to offend me, and i said, you know, i don't get that easily offended, i know george w. bush. [laughter] so the butchering of spanish

doesn't offend me very much. well, thank you very much, all of you, for being here. neil was just telling me this is the third event that the institute of politics today, so it seems -- you guys are busy. so i want to thank you, and i want to thank you, neil, for inviting me to new hampshire. new hampshire has a very special place in my heart. first of all, because as you heard, i'm a mccainiac, and winning the primary here was a very special night. probably one of the highlights of the campaign. second of all, because i happen to love your republican national committeeman, steve dupree, who has the coolest socks of any republican committeeman in the country. and third of all, because i think you guys have the coolest, baddest state slogan in the entire nation. [laughter] i thought we'd have a conversation today about where the republican party is, and i'm not here to give you a history lesson and to show you

powerpoints and give you statistics. you guys are in new hampshire, this is the birthplace of politics, you know all of that. what i want to do is talk big pictures and my impressions, my perceptions. the party is in flux. we are reeling from two consecutive losses. we have lost two quests for the white house. the gop has become the party of the gap. we have a gap with women voters, we have a gap with latino voters, we have a gap with asian voters, we have a gap with gay voters, we have a gap with young voters. we have so many gaps, frankly, the company should sue us for trademark infringement. despite the election results, there are two schools of thought in the gop. there seem to be two schools of thought on practically every issue today in the gop. but as it comes to elections and how to win elections, one group thinks that what republicans need to do is get more of the base out.

another group that i belong to thinks that what we have to do is grow the base. we can't just rely on traditional republican voters. and what i believe is that old, straight, white male voters just ain't what they used to be. and don't get me wrong, i love old, straight, white males. i'm married to one. [laughter] i'm friends with some. [laughter] i've even voted for several. but they're just not winning elections these days. and that is a reality. the demographic trends are just not swinging in their favor. demography matters in politics. that's what jeb bush said yesterday if new york when i was with him. mitt romney got 27% of the latino vote. the percentage of latino voters is increasing, and the percentage of white voters is decreasing. and i know that can be a little scary to some people, so let me give you the good news and bad

news. the bad news is we have you surrounded. the good news is we come in peace. [laughter] it will be very hard for any candidate to get into the white house without a decent showing of latino vote, and, no, 27% is not a decent showing. republicans not only have to stop losing the minority vote, we have to win back some of it if we ever expect to go inside the white house. and i've been inside the white house. the inside of the white house is a lot nicer than the outside of the white house. republicans not only have to motivate the base, we have to grow the base. republicans need to make the tent bigger, or we will soon find ourselves standing under an umbrella. i am a woman, i'm an immigrant, i'm hispanic. i don't qualify for aarp membership yet. and i am a republican. sadly, i'm an endangered species right now. and i often get asked how can you possibly be a republican? why are you a republican? the explanation lies in my personal history. my family's story is what shaped

my political views. i came here in 1980. i was born in nicaragua. there was a communist revolution, the sandinistas came to power in 1979 after a three-year, bloody civil war. it turned out the sandinistas were also communists. by the way, i don't know if you know a sandinista got elected mayor in new york, and they quickly went about instituting communism in our little country. my parents were not fans of redistribution of wealth, and at that point they made the decision of getting out of nicaragua. my father stayed behind, he became a contra, a freedom fighter. and when your father's a guerrilla struggling to bring freedom back the your country, you realize at an early age that politics matter. election results matter. being a bystander is not an option. being involved is what you must do. i became a republican the night i heard ronald reagan addressing

congress trying to win support for aid to the nicaraguan freedom fighters. when you're in exile, a political refugee, when your dad is risking his life fighting for freedom and you hear the president of the united states of america at a state of the union address support and defend the right of your home country to be free, that pretty much seals the deal about what party you're going to belong to for the rest of your life. that's why i i became a republican before i even knew what one was. i stayed a republican because i believe in smaller government. i believe in entrepreneurship. of i believe in american exceptionalism. i believe in a strong america internationally. i have remained a republican as well because i live in miami. i've lived in miami for 33 years, and there i'm represented by folks like jeb bush, like senator connie mack, like ileana ros-lehtinen, jeb bush or ileana ros-lehtinen fan in the -- were you on insurance?

>> [inaudible] >> if any of you, if any of the students here want internships, she's the best at that. and republicans in florida, especially south florida, understand that if you want to win, you've got to embrace diversity. you've got to understand it, and you've got to represent it. and let me say this, i'm a proud republican. no qualifiers. no labels. no subcategories. i don't want to be called a tea party republican, a conservative republican, a moderate republican, a whacko republican, a moss-covered republican, a libertarian, a vegetarian, a humanitarian or a rastafarian. i don't want to be told my people if my party who have appointed themselves the republican security police that i don't belong. i don't want to be called a rino. actually, i've changed my mind on that. go ahead and call me a rino because for me that stands for republican that's inclusive, not

obstructionist. i just want to be a republican, and i want to focus on the things that we agree on as a party, not the things we disagree on. i don't want to wage primary fights against republicans that can win in their individual districts and states. call me crazy, but i'd rather use our resources and our energy in beating democrats, not other republicans. mike lee can win utah, but he probably could not win in new hampshire. chris christie can win in new jersey, but he would have a very hard time winning in alabama. and i don't care how many times or how hard ted cruz can hug barack obama, i don't think he could win the majority of the latino vote, the majority of the women vote, a fourth of the black vote in a blue state like new jersey. i want to win elections. that requires fielding candidates that can win. fielding candidates that fit the population needs, priorities of the places where they are running. a winning republican candidate

with whom i agree part of the time is a hell of a lot better than a losing republican candidate with whom i agree all of the time. and because this is new hampshire, i want to make an aside here. kelly ayotte is a winning republican candidate. and she's an even better senator. she is thoughtful, she is courageous, she has brains, she has heart, she has guts. she worries about priorities in new hampshire, not republican primaries in new hampshire. and as ted cruz and the senate conservatives found out recently, do not tread on kelly ayotte. she bites back. if you ask me today what the biggest problem the party faces, i would say there are many issues. but the most harmful is the perception that we are intolerant to those who think differently, often times within our own party. we have to reflect diversity of thought. it's okay for the republicans to disagree on issues, to disagree

on tactics as long as we agree on values. be you may not know it from watching cable tv or listening to talk radio, but not all republicans oppose gay marriage. not all republicans oppose immigration reform. and i want to talk in a little more detail about immigration reform. we must pass it because the system is broke withen. and not -- broken. and not doing anything is endorsing the status quo. we must pass it because it makes economic sense. it makes national security sense. and, yes, it makes political sense. every poll of hispanics tells you the same thing; immigration is not a priority issue for hispanic voters. sometimes it's not even in the top five of the priority issues, but what it is is an emotional issue. it's a gateway issue. too often the immigration debate turns hostile and ugly, too often it sounds like there are some folks who don't want us in this country. and unfortunately, more often than not they are members of my party. let me just assure you, my calfs

are not the size of cantaloupes. and his -- if hispanics think you don't like them, you don't want them to be members of your club, well, in all likelihood they won't elect you back, -- elect you president of that club. on election night in 2012 i said on cnn mitt romney self-deported from the white house, and he did so during the republican primaries. so where are we on immigration reform? in a nutshell, we have 11 million undocumented immigrants in the united states. most rational people agree we could not and should not round them all up and deport them en masse. most rational people agree that we don't want to be left picking our own produce, plucking our own chickens, cutting our own hair, operating on our own hearts and brains. most rational people agree we need to secure our borders, throw out immigrants who have come to this country and committed crimes, attract and

keep more talented foreign students and workers, not offer blank check amnesty. not punish kids for the actions of their parents and put tough but fair requirements in place as a condition to earning legal status. most rational people approve an eventual path to legalization whether with or without citizenship. so if you're sitting there, you must be asking yourself, well, if this woman says most rational people agree on all that, how come we can't get anything done? well, the answer is simple, there's a lot of of irrational people making our laws and running our government. fortunately, believe it or not to -- and i think it seems harder to believe some days -- there are still rational people left in washington, and fortunately, some of them happen to be in republican leadership. i've spoken to john boehner. i think he wants to get immigration dope. but he has to -- done. but he has to find a way to do it so that it passes muster in the house and it passes muster

in the his republican conference. and sometimes that's mutually exclusive. it's not an easy needle to thread. i think it's premature to say that immigration reform is dead. it's not going to happen this year, but i keep hope alive that it may make a miraculous recovery and wake up from its coma sometime spring of next year. we'll see. if we get immigration reform done and off the table, then republicans can talk to hispanics and other minority groups about other issues that are priority to us. too off i hear folks say that if we pass immigration reform, we will be creating 11 million new democrats. the people who espouse this theory have one thing in common: not a one of them is hispanic. there are other things. hispanics know and understand that we are not one big, monolithic bloc. hishispanics are not going to ve republican because we pass be immigration reform.

the republican party will have to fight for the heart and soul of immigrant groups. .. cut up into pieces and the pieces will be thrown into a tank of hungry sharks. enough with this. part of the reason this happens is because there are not enough women elected as republicans. as -- after i have to believe it would make a difference in how all republicans would talk to, talk with and talk about women.

it's time for the voices in the parties to make themselves heard again. if one is not a republican said something stupid, something offensive, or should we didn't elect republicans immediately repudiating the statement and making clear they are not representative of the entire party. we can't be lukewarm about it. it's not just okay to say that's not the language i would have used. we have to call stupid, stupid. we have to change our tone on so many issues. not just women's issues. this also includes issues like gay rights. we have begun to change on gay-rights. a few days ago the senate voted on a bill any discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. and pass with 10 republican votes. 50% of republicans under 44, and i'm one of them, support marriage equality. i support gay marriage because i

think it's consistent with republican values. if we are the party of personal freedom, that includes the freedom to marry whomever you want. if we are the party of states' rights, that means we have to respect states like new hampshire who choose to give their citizens, their gay citizens the right to marry. if we are the party that wants less abortions and more adoptions, then we can't stand in the way of a loving, gay couple who wants to adopt a child who is in the custody of the state. i feel this way them and i didn't -- i have many gay friends and i just think we cannot reconcile telling somebody i love and respect, that i love and respect them but i think they are entitled to less rights than i am. because they have a different sexual orientation. i just can't reconcile it. i also think we have to start being the party of ideas again.

we have to offer solutions, we have to propose alternatives. we cannot just be the party of no. i don't want to send negative about the gop. i can get frustrated but i rarely get discouraged. i believe our candidates out there can begin changes. who can change the tone, change the message, change the voting trends, reach out beyond traditional republican voters, go seek votes in places where republicans have stopped going. chris christie did it in a blue state. jeb bush did it in a purple state. martinez and brian sandoval are doing it and swing states. this is not mission impossible, but we've got to want to do it. we've got to work towards doing it. we can't just think about doing it. the democrats are stuck in a similar right. from carter and about 1992 when clinton came along. he brought energy, ideas and a

positive outlook. he told us not to stop thinking about tomorrow. it took democrats three the elections to get their groove back. 12 years of painful losses and being out in the wilderness. for them to get past internal differences and find a candidate they could unite behind. i'm hoping it takes us eight years and just two losses. with that, with a positive note i would like to open it up to questions. >> hi. one criticism i've been hearing about why we are seeing so many candidates who can reach across the aisle or can't appeal outside on demographics because

of gerrymandering. we have all these ultrasafe crazily drawn districts, and so you don't need to be a more inclusive candidate to win. do you agree with that? if so, keeping the republican party should get behind initiatives to have more nonpartisan league drawn districts, a more saner place to draw congressional districts? >> yes, i agree with that. i think gerrymandering has a lot to do with where we are right now, and that's not just a problem for republicans. it's also a problem for democrats but it's just become more visible for republicans lately. there's going to be some state republicans will be behind initiative. there will be some states where they don't because, frankly, all politics is local and people like safe districts. so it's a hard argument to make. i think the courts are going to decide in some cases, in some

states. but i also think we have to look for candidates who are big thinkers, not just small thinkers. who can think about the greater good, not just their own good. and that, frankly, happens in primaries. i think primaries are where a lot of the problems are happening but that's where gerrymandering is a contributing factor to these problems. amongst many others. you know, cable tv, that i'm a part of is contributing factor. it's become a very polarizing force in american politics. i'm not sure what comes first, the chicken or the egg, the polarizing cable-tv or the polarizing politics. but i do know that too often what we see, particularly from republicans on tv, is republicans that say crazy,

colorful things because they are quotable and it turns into further press. i've had times, for example, where i was may be booked on our sunday show, or i was booked on a sunday show and it was the week of the decision, the decision on gay marriage but i got a call from a tv booker about friday, asking me where i was on gay marriage. i said i'm supportive of gay marriage. she called me back 50 minutes late and second you know, we're going to go in another direction. we want somebody that is against it. so that person can get into a fight with hilary rosen, in this case. that's what makes ratings. we all complain as viewers that we don't like the polarization, but that's what we watch. i think that we have the power

to change it. we just have to realize we have the power and we have to do it. >> hi. so you talked earlier about how there's all these decisions of the republican party, the tea party and the moderates and radicals and everything. so do you, then later talked about some the changes you would like to see happen in the republican party to bring more electric in the are you ever worried that bringing those changes in is going to create a more complex is going to divide us more as republican party than to unify us and bring in more voters? >> i almost have a hard time imagining that we could be any more divided than we are now. i shouldn't say that because, because i shouldn't say that. no, i don't think -- i don't think broadening the base could divide us more because i think broadening the base can win

elections. it's a funny thing about winning elections. they are really therapeutic when it comes to healing divisions and factions. look, we are going to endure this, growing pains, healthy debates, insanity, whatever you want to turn it. we will have to endure for the next year and a half, two years until we have a nominee that sets a tone. i hope that the nominee is sets the tone of uniting us and uniting the country behind republican ideas, i hope it's a nominee that believes in the power of persuasion, not in the power of end it. i think this is something we will have to frankly plow through. i just -- i don't see how getting more people in is more divisive. i think getting people out is

divisive. i don't think with a luxury. some people talk about should the tea party break away from the republican party or should so it's a breakaway? well, we are not winning elections as it is, so to me the winning formula towards winning elections is unbecoming to smaller part. it's building a bigger party. >> high, ana. thank you so much for your talk. i'm a professor of theology at st. vincent college. i have a question for you. >> you think republicans need prayer, don't you? >> republicans have a lot to offer but i want to ask a question about jon huntsman. i'm going to admit in front of this room full of people probably republicans, that i'm a democrat. i tend to vote democratic, but i saw what jon huntsman had to offer and i'm pretty sure nine times out of 10, last year if he

were the candidate, he would have had my vote. he is a man with since, with a big vision. is able to reach out to people from a lot of different places. i know you know this because you were on his team. now, what do you think, what sort of concrete strategies would you suggest for getting a candidate like jon huntsman and giving it a chance to actually have a shot beyond just a few, you know, although the into the primaries. this is important because again, from the perspective of a moderate democrat, very sympathetic to republicans, a latina, a woman, that's the kind of candidate gene. why does it seem so hard to get a guy like him into play and it to acer's conversation about the presidency? >> well, it's too bad the republican party, the primary hasn't held in universities

because there's a lot of jon huntsman fans in universities. i think jon huntsman is a great guy. i chose to sporting because ideologically he was the one out of the field, and yes, it was slim pickings in 2012, that i agreed the most with. sometimes very good people who might even be good governing, don't make the best candidates. and i have to tell you, you know, he wasn't too fond of him and raising. it's terrible to be asking people to money all the time. it's really one of the worst parts of politics but it is a necessary evil. and he just can't he just didn't cut through. i also think john, who i respect, i like, i think has a tremendous intellect, a

wonderful family, but i think jon has become really a nonfactor in the republican party. and the democratic party. just to give an example, last year chris christie was invited to cpac. i can tell you that was fodder in cable-tv for five days. five days we all spend talk about how chris christie, the governor of new jersey, the potential 2016, the bigger than life got wasn't invited to cpac. jon wasn't invited to cpac. and nobody even noticed. some that even though people like jeb bush, i'd bobby jindal, like chris christie, have been critical of the republican party, particularly in washington, the washington republican party.

they somehow managed to do it from within, and i can't put my finger on why. that just doesn't translate the same way. i think he would be a constructive force. i would like to see him be a bigger factor than what he is. in the republican party. but really, outside of some moderate democrats like you in academia, via the jon huntsman contingency is quite small. >> hello. my name is jacob wagner. i'm chairman of the new hampshire college of republicans and -- >> hello. i know who you are. >> i tweet you an unhealthy amount during the week. >> i'm glad to see you look normal. [laughter] you do have like a twitter fascination with me so, you know last night i like you already. keep tweeting spent i agree with

you so much i can't help it. i was an intern on jon huntsman's campaign. as much as it breaks my heart i agree with your analysis. i know i just want to really quick say thank you though for having the guts to call out stupid as you see it if you will. and for not being afraid to sign on to support gay marriage. i actually wanted to sign on to the amicus brief, the sprinkler that i know you joined on last year. so thank you for being one of the same voices. and honestly for giving hope that there's a great future ahead for our party. but i did have two questions regarding that. what would you say, what are your thoughts on obamacare? and i ask because while generally when the bill was implement it we were all universally against it. i do think that lately our tone has been sounding like a witchhunt. because everyone kind of things that would be like a winning

issue and everything like that but i'm not so convinced just yet and i'm curious about your thoughts on the. secondly, i was curious about what you think, what's been called in immediate the gop civil war. so while i applaud you for coming out and saying what you feel anything like that, i've been told as the republican chairman to tone it down, be friendly, show an image of unity. so i'm just -- >> who is telling you? who is telling you to tone it down? >> in party. we want to make sure that we look healthy spent live free or die. [laughter] spent there you go. amen to that. >> look, on your second question, not to get overdramatic, i'm not too fond of the term civil war when it comes to what's going on in the republican party. maybe it's because i lived through one, and so i don't, i don't -- one of the things i really hate that's happened in

politics, political, getting today and it's happened from elected officials is the trivializing of words like hostage, of words like civil war. to me those things mean something, and i think we have to make an effort to tone down and be more temperate voices and use more rational qualifiers and more rational words to describe what's going on. because that's part of the problem. so i don't see it as a civil war. i see it as -- i see it as what happens when a party is out of power, and there isn't one unifying voice. if i ask you guys right now, you are knitting over there, who is the leader of the republican party today?

[inaudible] >> he's my friend. i would tell him he got one person in new hampshire. [inaudible] >> who do you think is the leader of the party? >> it isn't jon boehner. he has no control over the pulpit or even in the senate look at ted cruz. ted cruz wouldn't say mitch mcconnell is the leader by any means. i think it's just so loose and -- i would like to process a chris christie. >> that's the point. if i went around the sherman act and as everybody who the leader of the republican party is, either we get no answers or 40 different answers. so when you don't have somebody that sets the standard, sets the tone, this happened. people start talking. you start sounding a little dysfunctional like you're

suffering from multiple -- multiple personality disorder. that is happening to republicans. it doesn't happen to democrats because they have a president and the white house. there's no bigger bully pulpit than the presidency, and frankly he keeps them in line. sometimes when a progressive democrat wants to go off the reservation, they have ways of keeping them in line. appointments, access to the white house, all sorts of things. so i think that's one of the problems we're having. i don't think the civil war, i think it is result of being out of the white house and they are not being one identifiable leader. there's not today somebody that you would say is the likely nominee in an open feel to it is -- we're going to duke it out. were going to duke it out between candidates and duke it out ideologically. we're going to duke it out on issues. this is just what it's going to be like for the next year, year and a half. i do think there's been a change

in the last month as a result of the overplay on the shut down. for about the last two years, the non-tea party or the traditional republicans, the republicans without qualifiers as i like to call them, you know, they kind of looked the other way when this group was doing their thing. but i think the government shutdown was the straw that broke the camels back. you saw it in the senate, they went to to get the conference lunch and your senator from new hampshire kelly ayotte was the one who opened up the pandora's box and said, stop treading on me. stopped raising money against the. why are you doing this? i can win in new hampshire. that opened up the floodgates. all of a sudden all the others, it took a woman to confront the issue and then all of the other

ones started piling on and asking the same questions. and the last two weeks has been merciful silence frankly from that more acerbic part of the party. so i think -- i think now everybody is involved. the tea party faction is embolden. the non-tea party faction is also embolden. i think you're going to see more of a concerted effort financially, structurally indie media and all sorts of ways of not just being defined and along the republican branch to be defined by one very local -- vocal group. wrinkly one tea party accounts for about 10 at me because they make phone calls, they go to protests. they go out in the cold, the rain, it takes an awful lot to get me to go protest something these days.

but i think it has recharged the different factions in the republican party, so i think this has been good. the shutdown has had that one could affect. the only good effect. on your first question about obamacare, the best thing that happened to obamacare was the government shutdown. if not we would have known from day one that it was a debacle. i remember asking a guy who is defending it to help define the website, et cetera, about two and a half weeks in when we finally started talking about obamacare and the website and all the different problems, well, they were calling it glitches, remember at the getting they were glitches? i said when can i start calling these glitches a debacle? and he said, about the middle of november if the website is a fix. today is november 19.

it is a gigantic debacle. you know, so many different aspects. because it's not just a website. and by the way, it's incredible that the greatest country in the world have spent hundreds of millions of dollars building a website and the thing doesn't work. that is not, you know, i'm tired of hearing excuses about it because i'm tired of hearing it's going to work by such a date and it's working that and is going to work by november 30. in all likelihood it's not. but there's more than a website. the website is the least of their problems. it's perhaps the most immediate and the most embarrassing. because the botched roll out and in life you get one chance to make a first impression. after you've made it and you've screwed it up, that's the first impression you may. the bigger problems are with the policy. we are seeing that. we are saying democrats like dianne feinstein get behind,

blue states can is not up for reelection, not talk about red states democrats up for reelection we are talking about dianne feinstein getting an efforts on the policy on issues like the cancellation of policy. that is not going to go away. the issue is going to get bigger and that issue is going to get more complicated because in less than a year from now the corporate mandate comes into effect. there's a lot of small and midsize businesses, i can the, jean is in the room, owns hotels. people, business people like that are looking at paying the fine, canceling the policies and putting the employees on the exchanges. those employees are not going to be any happier about being in those exchanges than the individuals are today that are having to go through the. so i think, i think as republicans we have to show

self-restraint, show self-discipline. this is painful for the entire country. this is not something we should be happy or gleeful about by any chance. i any means of the imagination. and i think we need to come to terms with the fact that there's aspects of obamacare that the american people like. and there's a lot of skittish repeal replace. i get worried when he hear those two words over and over. >> i think we need, the smartest thing we could do is really start formulating some positive alternatives answer and a republican solution is better than what ended up being a plan passed by one party. >> much agreed. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> let me just say that senator jon mccain is the reason i became a republican, and definitely the man i would most

like to see president today. i doubt that -- >> you know he is awfully cranky. steven tell you spend i wouldn't want to be caught on his bad side. >> let me tell you, if jon mccain's white house have spent hundreds of millions of dollars building a website and it didn't work, and may not know to operate our website. they may not know how to turn on the computer, but somebody's head would've rolled. and i mean literally. >> most definitely, most definitely. and let me say i hear -- i agree with about 80% of what you said here today. >> that's pretty good. >> not bad, not bad. i think we are glossing over the conversation and specifically the issue of redefining marriage into -- i mean we did not have social cost to it such as redefining marriage into a generalist institution to would

that not explicitly separate institutions connection between two interrelated realities such as gender difference and procreation? to a broader, than a more adult centric institutions less likely skittish talk to me in lay terms but i'm having a hard time understanding what you're asking spend no problem. less likely to combine husbands and wives and children spent you think gay marriage would negatively affect -- >> the stability of a nuclear family, yes. >> you guys at a gay marriage in new hampshire for a couple of years now. how is it going? spent while -- >> are a bunch of straight people running out in the streets turning gay or leaving their wives and husbands because gay people are getting married? >> well, actually i think, let's see, 41% of children are now born out of wedlock. and typically when somebody endorses that you, --

[inaudible] >> typically a court into the pew research center poll when people do if we define institution of marriage they're also likes -- less likely to seek children important to make. the generation gap also shows up on what panting as though. i mean, i'd afghanistan that there aren't like out is that would help people who domestically depend on each other to be, to help them out and i think that could be dealt with in civil unions but would not redefining marriage redefined them in such a way -- sorry. >> where are you from? where do you live? >> i live in syracuse, new york. [inaudible] spent you can move to alabama. look, i just -- >> surely there's a -- >> your question is a service question, but i just -- first of all when we talk about traditional marriage, what is

traditional marriage nowadays? there's over 50% of marriages end in divorce. so many of us live in blended families. second wives, second husband, kids from this family blending with kids from that family. the only difference for production, billy difference between gay couples and straight couples is that gay couples can get pregnant by accident, can't have a child by accident. so the vast majority of the people who end up having children or adopting children or doing whatever they have to do in order, scientifically, really have to work at it and it cost them a lot of money. many times gay couples have adopted children with disabilities, with problems. i have a friend who adopted to crack babies. and i just come in my mind, and get sick obligated issue because it involves social taboos.

it's been years and years and years of this. but just in my mind, sexuality is not equivalent to morality. and i think that if we're going to allow somebody to adopt a child, for example, or have a child, adoption where you go through some scrutiny, gay people need to go through the same scrutiny, the same level of scrutiny as straight people on whether they are fit to be adoptive parents. but i think, i think their sexuality does not make them unfit. i don't see -- i just do not see the connection between gay people being married as a threat to marriage. i would argue the people most want to get married right now our gay people. most single people, most straight people are waiting well into their 30s and even '40s

to get married, have children. if they do so at all. part of the reason we need immigration is because our fertility rate has fallen such because we are not having children at the same rate we used to have. so i think, you know, we have to come terms with the fact that marriage is not what -- traditional marriage in quotes is not what it used to be when june cleaver was around. and the bottom line is this. gay marriage, gay-rights, that train left the station. by the end of this year there's going to be 17 states and the district of columbia that allow gay marriage. very hard to tak take away righs once you've given them. it's easy not to give them in the first place. we are going to see what it means in terms of the family and

in terms of marriage and the sanctity of marriage and all of that. i agree that you can't force a religion. you certainly cannot legislate a religion to accept it, but there is the reality, today is, that there's going to be probably 17 states by the end of this year who are waiting for the illinois law to get signed and new mexico, supreme court case to be decided, but there could be up to 17 states by the end of this year in the next several months that have gay marriage. that number is going to grow. it's not going to decrease. so this debate is on the brink of becoming moot. >> i mean, sure there are some social costs. we look at countries such as benevolence or sweden, the cohabitation rates have risen. less people getting the. more people are putting marriage

off. >> is that because of gay marriage? >> harvey i think so spent it's because straight people don't want to get married. they just want to shack up spent i think we've made into a quaint social custom instead of, i think our policy would be better served strengthening marriage and making sure every child our gay speedy so how does gay marriage we can -- how does gay marriage we gay marriage? >> firstly, by making it -- sorry, nervous. by redefining marriage, making it long you associate it with decades of discrimination. also oftentimes you marginalize those people that hold marriage to a strong traditional standard, for instance, churches. united kingdom -- >> so what you're saying is because gay people can get married, now they're just have allies and its, it's not legitimate and, therefore, i'm going to be marginalize and i'm not going -- i'm going to

abstain from marriage and protest? >> no, no. >> i'm going to boycott marriage because gays are getting married because i think it would change what marriages. sorry. >> give it a couple of years. give it a couple of years. we're going to have statistics in a couple of years. that are 17 states. if all of a sudden you see a bunch of straight people are divorcing because of gay marriage, you know, and it becomes -- it's on the legal form, reason for marriage, instead of arrogance i will differences it would be because i'm protesting because of gay marriage, then i will agree with you. until then i'm sticking to my theory. >> i mean, what did not dilute marriage if we regulate it to near social contracts? >> it is a social contract. if you're an atheist, what the hell isn't?

can atheists not get married either? >> no, no. tspent it's not a contracts? >> honestly i think it should be more than a contract. >> by the way, have you heard pope francis on this stuff lately? spent well he -- >> surely if the catholic church can shift a little spent it's not shifting a little. he's just using a different tone. basic reiterating -- >> he is saying i think the catholic church has shifted tremendous a, not specific on gay marriage but just in general, and under pope francis, under the last what, eight months, can show you, i think it shows you what one person can do when they choose to lead, when they choose to exert leadership. when they choose to stop being judgmental. and when the lead by example and to lead with love, not with judgment. >> we've got time for two more.

>> yes, thank you for coming. i just wanted -- you are involved in like strategy and stuff, right? so i wanted to know -- >> losing one's. i really want to be in a winning campaign, you know? >> absolutely. >> where's the -- you know, no more non-drinking candidates. >> so i think the last election there was a lot of focus on these issues, on the whole -- iirc think one of the major reasons why obama one was because they were constantly saying, you know, oh, there's gay haters, anti-women because they think abortion is wrong. like they were punished -- pushing that. i don't think any of that is true. and for another thing, like, how do we move away from that?

i'm cuban, and i agree, like know, communism, you do not understand them is a bad idea. you're going down a bad road. like my family, we were republicans from the get go because of that. i just, how do you get out of hispanics to see that? how did it into c. like we're not the party, likable, this is best for you, how do you get the issues instead of being -- i don't want to be taken in like we're going to give you money and take if you because you can't take care of yourself, you know? like, how do you get them to move away from -- you know, how do you get them to see those issues and not so much focused on i think what the democrats are kind of selling them and thereby? >> ma'am, you missed the romney postelection comments. look, i don't think hispanics, i

don't think it's a fair assessment, frankly. i hear what you're saying but i don't think that's a fair assessment to think that the hispanics did not vote for romney, voted for obama because they were being given something. if you take a look at the campaign, the outrage, the efforts, the media, the money invested, of what the obama campaign, microtargeting of what the obama campaign did, the quality of the ads to mitterrand himself has admitted that he thinks one of his biggest problems was not investing enough in hispanic outreach and hispanic media. i agree with him in part, but i also think there was nothing for him to doubt. that was a point there in the

2012 election where hispanic voters, latino voters, were very angry with obama. he made it a specific promise on immigration. he was going to get it done in the first year and he didn't. latino voters were very disillusioned, brokenhearted. you know that for latinos our word is our bond. word of honor. he broke it. you can't gloss over the. i think a lot of latino voters were ready to run away from obama, but we didn't give them anywhere to run to. where were they going to run to? the guy who was espousing self deportation? the guy who was hanging out with the author of the arizona law? a guy who was -- you know, really not making any effort to win hispanic -- if you look at the romney campaign and that almost, like i stopped wanting to talk about the romney campaign because after all i had

electroshock therapy. i've tried to forget it. [laughter] but it almost seemed to me that they made a calculation that they could get a very low, they could get 30%, 29% of the hispanic vote and still win if they got enough of the base vote for the white vote. that just turned -- so they pretty much ignored the hispanic vote. rule number one to winning votes, is asking for votes. it's making the case. it's persuading people to be with your site. it's showing people that you can relate. you know, mitt romney had a hard time relating to white people. imagine relating to us. you know, and i just, i don't think, i don't think -- i don't agree with your assessment that hispanic voters for obama because they were being given

things. i think that is -- first of all, underestimating hispanics. in their thought process. i also think it's not recognizing that they frankly did a better job just campaign wise on microtargeting and reaching out and seeking the vote. you know, i -- that's not i think how we win hispanic vote. i think we win hispanic vote by -- you know, it's not impossible to do. just, what, 10 years ago george w. bush won 44% of the vote. in a republican who could win 44% of the vote, the hispanic vote today, we win. so this is not impossible to do. it just requires a candidate -- chris christie just did. he won 51% of the hispanic vote

in new jersey, and blue state. he put money into it. he spent time in a. the last event of the campaign was a union city, heavily hispanic down. he worked on getting the endorsement of the hispanic organizations and hispanic leaders. he was an avid hispanic bakery in the state. he made it a priority. he made it a dirty from day one. chris christie understands that what he brings to the table is the fact that he can get -- that he can increase the base. that he can increase the tent. that he can get crossover voters. so he needed to prove that come into did. he made it a priority. mitt romney didn't. don't blame the hispanics. >> so, my question, final question, would be, cannot you talk a lot about what the republican party needs and that white men are just not what they used to be, in terms of voting and you just had some chris

christie at what he did to appeal to the republican party and hispanic vote. so who do you think, in your opinion, to be the candidate to bring the republican party back to the white house? >> i'm jaded, unbiased. is my friend. i know him. i love him. he speaks beautiful spanish but i think the best candidate with the most complete package is jeb bush. because i think, i think he brings -- basically this election cycle i am like a plus size men's store. i'm either going big or tall. [laughter] so if a tall guy doesn't take me to the prom, i'm going with the big guy. you know, jeb is bicultural. he's not just bilingual. he is bicultural. you know, we consider him a

hispanic or i think he would be a game changer when it comes to the hispanic vote because he's been at it his entire life. this is not -- nobody can say he is pandering to the hispanic vote. this is what he has been working on his entire time. i think you would bring a temperate voice to the debate. i think he's thoughtful. i also think he brings some international experience. he's lived abroad. he's just got a much broader international portfolio than what i think chris christie does. i don't know what is is, and if hillary is the candidate, i think that's going to matter. even though i'm one of those -- i don't think hillary is going to be the candidate but i seem to be in the minority. so i think jeb bush would be the best candidate to change it. the question is, i'm looking at

that picture of george w. bush, but people always say, i don't want another bush. it's funny, some of people who told me that, then think it's terrific when piers morgan as bill clinton would make a better president, your wife or your daughter? okay. so i think the bush name, the bush brand is rehabilitating, has rehabilitated and will continue to rehabilitate for some reason. first of all, because george w. doesn't get involved in politics. he will not be dragged into any political controversial issue no matter what. anytime you hear or see the guy he is helping a wounded warrior or he is helping some child with malaria in africa. i think as george herbert walker bush's health becomes more frail, people remember what a good guy he was. youngest navy pilot of his

generation, a member of the greatest generation. and i think communism is going to be issues with it. there's only going to be issues with it. people are going to ask should we have three of the same them in the white house. but i tend to think that the contrast, the compare and contrast between jeb and his brother, and his father to a lesser extent, but actually benefit jeb. a lot of people don't know jeb bush, and so when you hear jeb bush, his level of thoughtfulness, of intellect, of substance, seriousness, people tend to be quite impress. i was with him last night, and i think he won the elderly jewish republican vote in the upper east side of manhattan. i also think, i think, yeah, i think there's a path.

i see a path for a jeb or christy and i agree with governor walker daddy governor is a much better candidate than a senator or somebody from congress, even though i'm a paul ryan fin. but the stench of dysfunction and obstructionism that emanates from washington right now is hard to disguise and shake off. you know, i think, i think chris christie's record in jeb's record would stand up to scrutiny from republican conservatives. they may not agree with all of it, but it's hard to argue that jeb bush did not govern as a conservative in his eight years in florida. once again, he didn't raise taxes once. so i think he would be a terrific candidate, and i think,

i think he is seriously thinking about it. i think he is intrigued about. he's thinking about it. he's a very self disciplined guy. so i don't think you're going -- i don't think he is going to sears to think about it and make a decision until next year, next summer, maybe a little bit later than that. around next summer. i would love to see his voice in the debate, the part of it just because i think he brings so much to the table, and because he's not going to be afraid to say what he feels he needs to stay. -- >> we will leave this program at this point a go live to london as british prime minister david cameron and members of the house of commons are giving tribute to former south african president nelson mandela. he passed away last thursday at the age of 95. mr. mandela serve as south africa's first black president from 1994 to 1999.

he spent 27 youth in prison before he was elected president. >> the house will wish to know how we intend to proceed today. defense questions will be postponed to next monday. the present list of questions will be carried over. there will not be another shuffle to the table office will announce consequential changes shortly. this is a special day for special tribute to a special statesmen, nelson mandela. i hope that as many members as possible will be able to contribute. tributes may continue until 10 p.m. there will be no end of day adjournment debate. the house will also wish to know that there will be an event to commemorate and celebrate the life and achievements of nelson mandela, taking place in westminster hall at 2 p.m. on thursday december 12. i call the prime minister.

>> thank you, mr. speaker. nelson mandela was a towering figure in our lifetime, a pivotal figure in the history of south africa and the world, and it is right we meet in this parliament to be treated to his character, his achievements and his legacy. the union in south african flags flew at half mast over downing street the day after his death and they will do so again on the date of this you know. condolence books have been organized by the south african high commission. proceedings the deputy commissioner, the leader of the opposition and i will fly to south africa to attend the moral service in johannesburg. and on sunday is royal highnesses the prince of wales will represent this country at his funeral. here in this house for everyone's thoughts are with the family of nelson mandela, his friends and the millions in south africa and around the world who are mourning him today. mr. speaker, when looking back over history it can be easy to see victories over hatred as

inevitable. as the years later and defense -- vacancies -- continually their humanity ever upwards. away from brutality and artists and towards something better. but it is not so. progress is not just handed down as a gift. it is one through struggle. the struggle and men and women who believe things can be better. who refuse to accept the world as it is but dream of what it can be. nelson mandela was the embodiment of that struggle. he did not see himself as a helpless victim of history. he wrote it. we must never forget the evil of apartheid and its effect on everyday life. separate benches, separate buses, separate schools, even separate pews in church. interracial relationships criminalized. banning orders, a whole language of segregation that express man's inhumanity to man. nelson mandela's struggle was made ever more vital by acts of

extreme brutality like a sharpeville on the part of the south african authorities. his was a journey that spanned six decades from his activism in the '40s and 50s through nearly three decades of incarceration, through his negotiations that led to the end of apartheid and his election to the highest office in south africa. it was as he said a long walk to freedom. as a prisoner in a cell measuring seven feet by eight feet, there must've been times when nelson mandela felt that his this would be against a wall that would not be moved. but he never wavered as he famously said at his trial, he wanted to live for and achieve the ideal of a democratic and free society, but he was also an ideal for which, as you said very clearly, he was repaired to die. even after long years of imprisonment he rejected offers for his freedom until they had removed all conditions that would have prevented his struggle for justice. what sustained him through out

all was a belief in human dignity. that no one is naturally superior over anyone else, that each person has inherent work. as he says a powerfully when he came to speak in this parliament, in the end of the christ of the infant who dies because of hunger or because of a machete split open its stomach will penetrate the noises of the modern city and its sealed windows to say, am i not human, to? nelson mandela's cries for justice peers the conscious of people around the world. let me pay tribute to the members of this house like a right honorable member in need to consider it a part of their life's work not to rest until the evil of apartheid was ended. mandela knew there were millions across the country who said no to apartheid in ways large and small form as concerts to quiet shows of solidarity, and there can be no doubt he had a real world feeling for this country. he visited just months after his release from prison and then again a number of times in the following years, including the

time when he spoke so memorably at the great event to make poverty history. mr. speaker, the character of nelson mandela will show not only in the determination with which he thought, but in the grace with which he won. nearly three decades in prison could so easily have left him bitter. on his release he could have needed a vengeance on those who had done him so much wrong here but perhaps the most remarkable chapter of mandela's story is how we took the opposite path. in victory he did indeed choose magnanimity. indeed, with characteristic generosity he invited his own former jailer to come to his presidential inauguration. he employed as an private sector a young afrikaner woman who became his confidant, and in an image that is indelibly printed on our minds, he roused his country behind the springboks in the most powerful gesture of reconciliation or his government pursued a very deliberate policy of forgiveness. fw declared and other national

party officials were brought into his government of national unity. the truth and reconciliation commission was established to break this spiral of recrimination and violence. these were astonishingly brave moves. mandela's desperate hope was for an african renaissance with south africa at its heart and it is time after office he showed no less determination and stepping up the fight against aids. it has been one of the great honors of my life to go to south africa and to meet mandela. i remember discussing this issue with him in his office and hearing his determination to ensure that antiretroviral drugs reached all of those in need. here was a man of 88 who had been imprisoned for decades and had missed a lot of the rapid social change taking place, but you had the vision to see the destructive attitudes of aids in south africa. all these actions were marks of his extraordinary personal leadership. and today those ashman though challenges remain, that country is on the data path did it

because of what nelson mandela did. indeed, there are signs of hope across the whole continent in its growth, in its emerging middle class, and the birth of new democracies. mr. speaker, around the world are already exist many monuments to nelson mandela. just a few hundred charts from here in parliament square the champion of democracy is cast in bronze, arms outstretched mid-speech as if this beaching those in this house to remember that democracy is a gift and get to be used well. there has been a lot of debate right about how to secure his legacy. surely one part must be do we dedicate ourselves to the task of eradicating poverty and conflict in africa. in which our historic commitment to north .7% of our gdp in aids can ensure that britain placed her full part. but, of course, the most important monument to mandela must be the lessons he has taught us. that there's dignity and worth in every human being, not an ounce of camilla is worth more than a ton of might, but lasting

long-term change needs patience, even the patience of a lifetime but that change can come with determination and sacrifice. so mr. speaker, it is with sadness we meet here today to remember nelson mandela. but it is with gladness that we can say this, it was a long walk to freedom but the walk is over. freedom was one year and for that nelson mandela has the deepest respect of the cells and his enduring place in history. >> here, here. >> ed miliband. >> mr. speaker, today we remember the life of nelson mandela. now, this house traditionally gathers to be treated to those who have led our country. it is unusual for us to meet to honor the leader of another. why was it so essential that we should commemorate the life of president mandela in this way? a simple reason to be is an enduring and unique symbol of

courage, hope, and the fight against injustice. he teaches us the power of forgiveness, showing no bitterness toward his captors. just the love of a country that could be so much better if all of its people could be free. and he demonstrates your even to the most skeptical, the power of people and politics to change our world. that is why we gather here today. so on behalf of my party, i send a deepest condolences to his widow, graca machel, the mandela family and all of the people of south africa. we mourn with them. today is an opportunity to remember the extraordinary life of the extraordinary story of nelson mandela. ..

>> he truly was, as archbishop tutu said, an icon of magnanimity. that is why he became not just the leader of a struggle, but truly can be described as the father of a nation. as we've seen in the tributes and emotion that he's inspired since his death in the black and white communities of south africa, and we honor him, too, because for him the struggle against injustice was a story that never ended. having been an activist who became a president, he was a president who became an activist once again. campaigning on causes from debt relief to hiv/aids to the war this iraq. in iraq. and we honor somebody, too, who wore his extraordinary heroism with the utmost humility. a year after he gave up the presidency, he came to the labour party conference and described himself as an unemployed pensioner with a criminal record. [laughter]

he famously said to desmond tutu, who teased him for his taste in gaudy shirts, it's pretty thick coming from a man who wears a dress in public. [laughter] his empathy led him to seek out not the most famous person in the room, but the least, and his warmth made every person he met walk taller. so we honor a man who showed the true meaning of struggle, courage, generosity and humanity. but we gather here in our parliament, mr. speaker, in britain also to recognize for the history of our country was bound up with his struggle. in the spirit of truth and reconciliation, south africa was, after all, once a british colony. but later britain would become in nelson mandela's own words the second headquarters of our movement in exile. the prime minister and i and thousands of others went to sign

the con doll lens book in south africa house on friday. it's easy to forget now the south africa house was not always such a welcoming place to the opponents of apoor tide. apartheid. so we should also remember today the hundreds of thousands of people who were the anti-apartheid movement in britain. the people who stood month after month, year after year on the steps of that embassy when the cause seemed utterly futile. the church, the unioners, the campaigns who marched and supported financially, culturally and in so many other ways. the people who supported the cause of sanctions, people whose names we do not know from all over britain who were part of that struggle. as well as those who will be etched in history, including the leaders of the movement who found sanctuary in britain. and if the house will allow me,

those in my own party who played such an important role like bob hughes how in the house of lords, my right honorable friend -- [inaudible] and so many, many more. mr. speaker, it may seem odd to a younger generation that apartheid survived as long as it did given that it now seems to have been universeally reviled all the world over. but the cause was highly unfashionable, often considered dangerous by those in authority and opposed by those in government. the prime minister was right a few years ago to acknowledge the history. it's in the spirit of what nelson mandela taught us, to acknowledge the truth about the past and without rancor to welcome the change that has come to pass. but also to honor his legacy by acknowledging that in every country, including our own, the battle against racial ip justice still -- injustice still needs to be won. so we come here to honor the man, to acknowledge our history

and also for one final reason, to recognize and uphold the universal values for which themson mandela stood -- nelson mandela stood. the dignity of every person, whatever their color or creed, value of tolerance and respect for all and justice for all people where wherever they may . nelson mandela himself said i am not a saint, i am a sinner who keeps on trying. his extraordinary life calls on us all to keep on trying for nobler ideals, higher purposes and for a bigger and not a smaller politics inspired by his example and the movement he led. we mourn his loss, we give thanks for his life, and we honor his legacy. >> here, here. >> mr. nick clegg. >> mr. speaker, on behalf of the

democrats, i want to add our voice to the many tributes to nelson mandela, the father of modern south africa. our thoughts and condolences are with his loved ones, the people of south africa and everyone around the world grieving his loss. mr. speaker, nelson mandela's message transcended the boundary of nations, people, colors and creelds. creeds. and his character transcended boundaries too. he was a politician, but appeared to be free of all the pettiness of politics. he was a warm human being with a mischievous wit and yet seemed to rise above the normal human frailties of anger and hurt. he was a man who was well aware of his place in history, but he didn't want to be placed on a pedestal and was humble at all times. so with qualities like this, it is little wonder that millions of people who did not meet him in person nonetheless feel they

have lost a hero and a friend. i never had the privilege of meeting nelson mandela myself, but like so many people, i almost feel as if i had. he clearly made a huge impact on all of those he did meet. i remember paddy would tell me his wife would say he was one of the most charming men he'd ever met. i was one of the students who flooded wembley stadium to mark his 70th birthday. i remember thinking how on earth could this one man live up to everyone's expectations if and when he was finally released. but as a free man, nelson mandela not only met those expectations, he surpassed them. the challenge for south africa seemed almost impossible at the time. how could people who'd spent so long divided in conflict and

either perpetrated or suffered so much abuse find it within themselves to forgive, to move on and to build something together? well, mandela could and did. and a truly remarkable example of forgiveness he set, made it possible for his country to be reborn as the rainbow nation. mr. speaker, given the enormity of his achievements, we're all struggling to work out the best way to honor his legacy. i like to think that one of the things he would like us to do in this house today is to pay tribute to and support the individuals and the organizations around the world that fight for human rights and do not have a global name. right now all over the world there are millions of men, women and children still struggling to overcome poverty, violence, discrimination. they do not have the fame or the standing of nelson mandela, but i'm sure that e would tell us --

he would tell us that what they achieve and endure in their pursuit of a more open, equal and just society shapes all our lives. campaigners like mary who works to protect and empower the women of afghanistan, simmer, the head of the afghan independent human rights organization and the committee of the relatives of the detained and disappeared in honduras which works in the shadow of threats and intimidation. they are just three examples of the individuals and organizations who deserve our loyalty and support just as much as the british campaigners in the anti-apartheid movement in london showed unfailing loyalty and support towards nelson man tell la in his bleakest -- mandela in his bleakest days, and i would like to pay tribute to the fellow campaigners for what they did at the time. all of this will make the way we mark tomorrow's international human rights day all the more significant. and britain can pay no greater tribute on the -- to nelson

mandela than by standing up around the world for the values of human rights and equality he fought for. when nelson mandela took his first steps to freedom, he made no call for vengeance, only forgiveness. he understood that dismantling apartheid's legacy was about more than just removing the most explicit signs of discrimination and segregation. and he recognized, too, that to build a brighter future south africa must confront the darkness of its past. this doing so, nelson -- in doing so, nelson mandela laid down a blueprint that has made it possible for other divided communities such as in northern ireland to reject violence, overcome their differences and make a fresh beginning. and that is why i hope that in communities where people are the still struggling to replace violence and conflict with peace and stability, the principles of forgiveness and reconciliation which mandela embodied are followed by others too. recently, for example, we have

debated in this house the alleged human rights abuses in sri lanka. surely, there can be no better way for that country to heal its wounds and bring peace and unity to all its people than to follow mandela's example and emulate south africa's truth and reconciliation process. this, as i see it, is nelson mandela's lasting legacy to all of us. to champion the defenders of human rights today and to know that wherever there is conflict and injustice, with hope and courage peace is always possible. as the prime minister reminded us earlier, at his 1964 trial mandela told the world that equality in south africa was an ideal for which he was prepared to diement -- die. no one who's listened to those words can fail to be moved to hear a man so explicitly, so courageously put his life on the line for freedom. as others have remarked, mandela

famously likes to repeat that great saying: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. so on this year's human rights day and beyond, let us honor his memory by insuring that the hope he gave lives on for all of those whose liberties and rights are still denied. >> mr. gordon brown. >> mr. speaker, 51 years ago directly across from this house in parliament square standing in front of the statutes of -- [inaudible] lincoln and general -- [inaudible] and with his friend, oliver, nelson mandela asked the question when, if ever, would a black man be represented in that parliament square. and that day in june 1962 was an important be one. his first visit to london and possibly his last. because he was on the edge of being arrested, imprisoned, put

on trial twice -- once for his life -- and then spent 27 years incarcerated. so it was a great privilege on behalf of the people of britain that i was able to unveil in 2007 a statue to the first black man to be represented on that square, nelson mandela himself in the presence of nelson mandela and his wife. and that statue of nelson mandela stands there now and forever. yes, his hands outstretched, as the prime minister said, but his finger pointing upwards as he always did to the heights. the man most responsible for the destruction of what people thought was indestructible, the appar tiled system, the man who -- apartheid system, the man who taught us that no injustice can last forever. nelson mandela, the greatest man of his generation, yes. but across the generations one of the most courageous people

you could ever hope to meet. winston churchill said that courage was the greatest human virtue of all because upon courage, everything else depended. and nelson mandela had eloquence, determination, commitment, passion, wit and charm. but it was his courage that brought all these things to life. we sometimes think of courage as daring and bravado and risk, taking risks and recklessness, and it is all these things that mandela had in admirable qualities, but mandela was the first to say that true courage depends not just on strength of will power, but on strength of belief. and what made him the architect of a free south africa, the one and first great achievement of nelson mandela, what made him this great around text of a free south africa was this burning belief that everyone, every hand and woman was equal, everyone

born to be free, everyone created not with a destiny to be in poverty, but created to have dignity in life. >> here, here. >> and the intensity with which nelson mandela believed this and the determination that he would never be paralyzed by fear is something that is recorded forever in a book that was brought into the prison, smug be led into the prison in robin island. the work withs of william shakespeare. and alongside his signature, n. mandela, he has marked the words of julius caesar. a coward, he says, dies a thousand times before his death, but the taste of death but once. it seems to me most strange that men should fear seeing that death a necessary end will come when it will come. and remarkably, that amazing courage to stand up to evil stood with this lack of bitterness that has been

described already today, forgiving his prosecutors, the would-be executioners, and the most amazing story that he told me was on the night before they left prison calling all the anc prisoners together and saying, yes, they would be justified in acts of revenge, retaliation and retribution, but there could never then be a strong, successful, multiracial society, and that was his second great achievement, to achieve change through reconciliation. but, you know, there was a didder achievement, refusing to rest or relax when he gave up the presidency. he had great achievement to his name. he himself wrote that in the first part of his life he had climbed one great mountain to end apartheid, but now in his later life he wanted to climb another great mountain, to rid the world of poverty and especially the outrage of child poverty. and i need speak of only what i saw in the times that i worked with him, how quietly and

without fanfare he went about his work. 2005 i flew to south africa to meet nelson mandela to persuade him to come to london so that he could then persuade the finance ministers of the need for debt relief to relieve poverty, and this he did. and then in 2006 with his wife, a leader in her own right who shared his ideals, someone who will now carry on his legacy into the future, he and she launched the british program for education for every child so that we could be the first generation in history where every child went to school. and he warned us when we had that press conference, he said that to get every child to school we would have to end child labor, and we'd have to end child marriage and we'd have to end the discrimination against -- a campaign that he and his wife have been involved in ever since. and typically, nelson mandela at the beginning of his conference said that the cause was so

urgent, they had now come out of retirement so that he could prosecute the cause. and at the end of the press conference, he said it was now up to the younger generation, and he was returning to his retirement now. [laughter] and then i visited him in south africa the week that his son died of aids. and while mourning and in grief and shocked by the event, he insisted in coming out to the waiting press with me. and he said that aids was not to be treated as a moral judgment. it was to be treated exactly like the tuberculosis that he had suffered as a disease in need of cure. his greatness as vast as the continent he loved, showing there that his greatness was a greatness of the human soul. mr. speaker, my good fortune was to meet nelson mandela not so long after he had left prison, and i remember his first greeting. ah, he said, a representative of the british empire. and ten he flashed that same

smile. and be then ten years ago the birth of my son, josh, i picked up the telephone, and there was nelson mandela on the phone. he, too, had lost a child in infancy, and from that time on his birthday, the day before my second son's, the day of john's, we exchanged telephone calls on the days of these birthdays and presents, letters and cards. the last only this october. now, raising money for children's causes was the purpose of nelson mandela's 90th birthday eart if london when president clinton and i were proud to pay tribute to him before an auction where he gave the original copy of his famous letter to a child. at first oprah winfrey bid for it, then elton john. oprah winfrey was then told she would have to acin pounds and not dollars -- [laughter] and nelson mandela and i joked that it was time for another million pounds to write another letter and sell it to elton johnment. [laughter]

john. his last public event was at hyde park in london, again to raise funds for children. and sitting next to him, my task -- something i was uniquely incapable of doing -- was to explain who the celebrity acts were, what -- [laughter] and what they were about. and he was particularly intrigued by amy winehouse. sadly, no longer with us. and i remember him going down to meet her and her joking with him that her husband and mandela had a great deal in common, both of them had spent a huge amount of time in the prison. [laughter] and at that point he wanted a drink, and his wife had banned drink from the occasion because of his fragile health, so i can never forget this occasion of mandela with all these great achievements behind him for his 90th birthday surely entitled to a celeb story drink, hiding from his wife's view the glass of champagne that i produced for him. [laughter] very few people know that nelson mandela loved not only to tell people, but to gossip, to gossip

about everybody from the spice girls to celebrities in sport to political leaders, and i will refrain from mentioning what he said about them -- [laughter] but he admired and respected her majesty, the queen. and he told me that he wanted the queen to invite an african rain princess from his tribe to a reception at buckingham palace, and he'd gotten nowhere through the diplomatic channels. so he decided to telephone her personally. and the story goes of the conversation that words that only mandela could use, hello, elizabeth. [laughter] how's the duke? [laughter] and while the official minute says that the queen was noncommittal -- [laughter] he got his way. [laughter] mr. speaker, hung by mandela on the bare walls of that bleak prison cell was a facsimile of the british painting by a famous artist, frederick watts. it is the haunting image that he had in the his prison cell of a

blinded girl sitting on top of a globe of the world. and the painting entitled "hope," it's about the boldness of a girl to believe that even when blinded and even with a broken heart and only one string -- broken harp and only one string, she could still lay music. her and mandela's belief that even in the most difficult and bleak of times, even when things seem hopeless, there could still be hope. and i believe that that explains why over these last few days we've both mourned the death of mandela and celebrated his life with equal intensity. and who else could unite the whole world of sport man nowly -- unanimously in every con innocent of the world with applause? we are mourning because as long as mandela was alive, you knew that even in the worst of disasters, amidst the most terrible of tragedies and conflict, amidst the evil that existed in the world, there was someone there standing between us and the elements that represented goodness and

nobility. and we're celebrating today because the lessons that we have learned from them will live on. he teaches us that, indeed, no injustice can last forever. and he teaches us that whenever good people of courage come together, there is infinite hope. >> here, here. >> sir malcolm ripken. >> on the day of his release in 1990, i was waiting with many millions of people for him to emerge from prison. and i remember a particular thought at that time, that although he was a global figure, the whole world knew of nelson mandela, no one had the faintest idea what he looked like. no photograph of him had appeared since he went into prison 27 years earlier at a relatively young man of 46. and now he was emerging as a relatively old man of 73. i met him the first time when he

came to 10 downing street when john major was prime minister, and i recall that he entered downing street and number 10, the whole staff of number 10, 70 or 80 people, quite spontaneously had drawn themselves up in two lines in order to applaud him as he walked to the cabinet room. and john major says that was the first time that had ever happened since he had become prime minister. he was not a saint, as we've heard. he was a politician to his fingertips. he actually believed in the arms struggle for the earlier part of his career and perhaps in some degree for the rest of his career. but unlike many in the anc, he eventually decided that with peace we're more likely to deliver than the armed struggle. i recall going to south africa four years after 1990 when he was president and having dinner with the then-deputy defense minister of south africa. he was a white south african communist, founding member of --

[inaudible] he'd been educated at the elysee london school of economics, and he was a strong believer in the arms struggle. and i said to him you're a member of the south african communist party, it was often argued at the time by the south african government that you, your people, you and your colleagues were trained in the soviet union. was it true? and he said, yes, it was true, we were trained in the ukraine. and i i said why did you believe in the arms struggle, particularly as nelson mandela decided on a political solution? he said we believed that the white afrikaners would never give up power peacefully, it would only be the arms struggle that would get them out of power. i said to him, is that what they taught you in the soviet union? and i remember he grinned, he said, no, no, that's what they taught me at the elysee. [laughter] i lived and worked in southern africa for two years in the 1960s, but i got to know south

africa well, and i have to confess at that time i, too, assumed that there would be no peaceful resolution of the problems of apartheid. that whether one liked it or not, they would probably change that political system through arms struggle. and i was wrong. but i was wrong because what happened was there was not one hero in south africa, there were actually two heros, and it's worth remembering this. there was not just nelson mandela who undoubtedly deserves the bulk of the credit, but there was also the south african president. of and without both of them, it would not have been a peaceful resolution. and in some ways it was more difficult for the president than mandela. no, let me explain what i mean, it's a serious point. mandela was receiving power which at that stage most of the struggle had already been won. he was receiving power, the clerk was having to persuade his own people to give it up and to

give it up before they had actually been defeated. this was not conceded. this was a different situation which the world had not seen before. and to his credit, he realized he needed the legitimacy of the electorate of south africa who, in practice, were all white at that time. and he called the referendum, and by the sheer force of his leadership, he persuaded over 60% of white south africans who accept that the days of apartheid were over. but even then it required mandela, and it's to his credit, to go through long months of negotiation not always with the support of his colleagues in the anc in order to deliver not just a transfer of power, but a transfer of power that offered the prospect of peace for all the people of south africa. and mandela once notably said this is not about moving from white domination to black domination. there must be no domination of either community, and he was an

extraordinary man in not only believing that, but in practicing it with every fiber of his being. as we look today as to what are the lessons of mandela's extraordinary life and incredible achievements, if one looks not just at his contribution to south africa which, obviously, goes without saying, but his contribution to the wider world and why he's become such an icon cantic figure in the world -- iconic figure in the world as a whole, i think essentially there are two reasons for that. i think, first of all, he is perhaps the best example we've had in the last 100 years of how the force of personality, how political leaders who transform themselves from politicians into statesmen can by their sheer personal effort change the world and make what was impossible into possible and then deliver it. he's not the only one who has done so. we shouldn't think of it as a unique example. gorbachev by the force of his

personality helped end the cold war and deliver the liberation of eastern europe without a shot being fired, and few would have believed that possible. an obscure trade unionist at first builds up the solidarity organization and toppled the once-mighty polish communist party. anwar sadat, in ways a controversial figure, but by that extraordinary decision he took to fly from egypt to jerusalem and address the israeli denecessary set -- knesset and often sang suu kyi, we all know what he has done -- she has done in transforming burma. so being a charismatic figure itself is necessary, but it's not sufficient. it has to be combined with political skill and, of course, mandela was a politician to his finger points, finger points as well as being a man with all

these other talents. the second lesson i think it tells us is that, of course, you need political leadership, but we should also as mandela did recognize the strength of diplomacy as a way of getting political change. because even after mandela had been released, it took months and months of negotiation which could have collapsed at any stage into internal civil war. and in a year when we have seen howdy proposal si which is not always fashionable has produced the agreement on syrian chemical weapons, has produced an interim agreement on iran's nuclear program, it is worth taking comfort from that and seeing how mandela's example can deliver in an extraordinary way. so i conclude by simply saying this, when we pay tribute to nelson mandela as we rightly do, we should pay tribute the him for what he -- to him for what

he himself stood for, we should acknowledge what he achieved in south africa, but we should also recognize what he taught the world in regard to the resolution of what seemed like intractable political problems by patience, by personality, by courage and birdie proposal si -- birdie proposal si. military solutions, armed struggle is sometimes unavoidable, but very often it is avoidable, and he demonstrated that better than anyone in our own time. >> here, here. >> mr. peter haine. >> i thank the prime minister, deputy prime minister and the leader of the opposition for their perhaps overgenerous remarks about my role in simply to underline that there were many, many tens of thousands of activists in the anti-apartheid movement who deserve to be acknowledged as well. thank you, mr. speaker, for your personal leadership in insuring that there should be debate at

such a special event, as you said, for such a special person. and i note that you're wearing the south african tie on this occasion. and specifically, and this is very important, for proposing thursday afternoon's westminster hall event for civil society along with the lord's speaker, including, importantly, veteran activists of the anti-apartheid movement who worked so tirelessly over many tough and bitter decades for both nelson mandela's release and for the sanctions against apartheid that he wanted and which ultimately triggered his freedom. mr. speaker, i've never really been into heroes, but nelson mandela was mine b from when i was a young boy in pretoria, unique amongst my school friends, relatives as well in having parents who welcomed everybody to their house regardless of their color, activists in the anti-apartheid struggle. one fellow activist i remember remarked, this is the first time i've ever come through the front door of a white man's house.

blacks acting as servants or gardeners might be allowed in the back door occasionally. my mother was often alone in the whites-only section of the public gallery at melson mandela's -- nelson mandela's 1962 trial in pretoria, and when he entered the dock, he would always acknowledge her with a clenched fist which she would return. his beautiful wife, winnie, attended the trial each day k often magnificent in tribal dress. once when my tiny younger sisters went with my mother on a school holiday, winnie bent down and kissed the two little blond girls to the very evident horror of the onlooking white policemen. a black woman kissing two little white children disgusted them. forty years later, i was escorting nelson mandela to speak at the labour party annual

conference, but before that he had an appointment with the prime minister which was very carefully scheduled. we were going down the lift in the hotel, and he said how's the family? and i mentioned that my mother had broken her leg is and can was in hospital. ah, he said, i must phone her. the prime minister was kept waiting. [laughter] while nelson mandela chatted to porters and cleaners and waiters and waitresses all lined up. as the minutes ticked by and i desperately tried to gather her phone number, eventually got the ward, put -- i was put through, and i said to her there's a very special person would like to speak to you, handed the phone to him. he said this is mandela from south africa, do you know who i am? [laughter] having been sentenced to five years on robin island after that pretoria trial that my mother attended, he was then brought back over a year later as has been mentioned to be accused number one in trial. when facing the death penalty

and against the strong advice of his lawyer, he famously said during my lifetime i've dedicated myself to the struggle of the african people. i fought against white domination, and i've fought against black domination. i've cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. it is an ideal for which i hope to live and to achieve, but if need be, it is an ideal for which i'm prepared to die. i remember reading these powerful words at age 14, trying to take in their full significance and aware they were a great inspiration to my parents and all involved in the anti-apartheid struggle as he faced the death penalty. in fact, after worldwide pleas for clemency, he was sentenced to live imprisonment -- life impressment, and in july 1964 mandela return today the island not to be seen or heard in public again for nearly 26 years.

two years later in 1966, my parents, having previously been jailed, deprived of earning a living, our family sailed past robin island into exile here in britain, and we'll always be grateful for the welcome we were given in this country. i remember looking out over the cape rollers and imagining how mandela and his come raids were surviving in that -- comrades were survive anything that cold, bleak cell. as an african, he was permitted five ounces of meat daily where coloreds were allowed six ounces. he was permitted half an ounce of fat, coloreds, one ounce. the evil precision of apartheid penetrated every nook and cranny of life. banning interracial sex, park benches, sport, jobs, schools and hospitals and much, much more. the apartheid-stated hopes that

on the former leper colony of robin island with its freezing cold waters, he would be out of mind. but the longer he was imprisoned, the bigger a global leader he became. by july 1988, his 70th birthday became a global celebration with a pulsating free mandela anti-apartheid rock concert attended by 100,000 people at wembley stadium and watched on live television by 600 million worldwide. despite, i say for the record, mr. speaker, not out of any recrimination some conservative members pressing for the bbc to pull the plug on its coverage. and then almost miraculously was something we had never dreamed. we'd dreamed of, but deep down doubted would ever, ever happen. that historic day in february 1990 when he walked out of prison to freedom, an image forever imprinted on me and on millions, perhaps even billions

across the world. i say almost miraculously because history gets compressed and rewritten over time, and we take change more granted. for granted. the reality was very different. nelson mandela's struggle for flee.com and that of his national african congress was long, and and it was bitter taking nearly 100 years from the days that under british colonial rule the roots of apartheid were established. under britain, under britain in 1900 50 years before apartheid was formally institutionalized in south africa, most of apartheid's features were already in place in the bustling gold rush city of johannesburg. by then africans were already prevented there walking on the pavements, they were to walk in the streets, had to carry passes to work in the city, could not use buses and and trains designated for whites, were dreadfully exploited in the mines and had no political rights.

we all say in britain we were against apartheid, and doubtless we were. but some did things about it, others didn't. the anti-apartheid struggle was for most of its life engaged in a big fight here in britain too. its executive secretaries, first ethel kaiser, its chairman, lord bob hughes and treasurer, richard cayborn, former members of this house, were real stalwarts and neil kin nick along with -- [inaudible] as well. protests to stop whites-only tours provoked fierce anger. i remember it well. [laughter] pain to payne, as i recall. some people might still feel that. [laughter] yet nelson mandela confirmed to me that the isolation was a key factor in making whites realize that they had to change so that today that wonderful black rugby

star, brian, can be a spring -- [inaudible] when his predecessors under apartheid at the time we were demonstrating never could. demands for trade and economic sanctions were also relisted, yet their partial implementation progressively not by london, but by washington, eventually helped to pell the white business -- propel the white business community in the late 1980s to demand change from the very same apartheid government from which they had so long benefited. mr. speaker, forgive me if for a brief moment i strike what i hope won't be seen as too discordant a note on this occasion which sees the house at its very best coming together to salute a great man. were it not for the interventions in the media in recent days, i'd have let pass the historical record. i dui credit especially to you -- give credit to you especially, mr. speaker, that you were on the wrong side of the anti- apartheid struggle as

a young conservative. i give credit to the prime minister for apologizing for his party's record of what i have to describe as craven indulgence towards apartheid's rulers. and if nelson mandela can forgive his oppressors without forgetting their crimes, who am i not to do the same for our opponents in the long decades of the anti-apartheid struggle? when it really does stick in the craw when charles moore and others still tried over recent days to say their complicity somehow brought about its end. [laughter] even to my utter incredulity when the lord told bbc world this a debate with me that they had brought about mandela's freedom. [laughter] i know for a fact that nelson mandela did not think so. [laughter] on every possible opportunity, he went out of his way to thank anti-apartheid activists across the world for freeing him and his people.

it's, therefore, especially welcome that nelson mandela always retained an almost touching faith in british parliamentary democracy. even though, and i disagree with the interpretation by the right honorable member for kensington, even though by force of circumstances over most of his life he was a believer in nonviolent legal, peaceful trades. by force of circumstance, the suppression of his african national congress was a nonviolent campaign for over 60 years. he had to become a freedom fighter to lead an underground campaign of guerrilla activity similar to the french resistance against the nazis. and even when the majority in this parliament and the government was not on his side, he still cherished our parliamentary democracy. i mention this because mandela's old foes became his new friends, his former adversaries, his admirers. that was part, as others have said, of his greatness. but that was mandela, the

political leader. there was another, as by right honorable friend in his marvelous speech, has remarked. another equally engaging side to his greatness. he had an infectious capacity for mischief. in london a few weeks after our marriage in 2003, i introduced my wife elizabeth to him. is this your girlfriend, he asked. [laughter] when i replied, no, she's my wife, he chuckled, so she caught you then. [laughter] and when elizabeth, who can be somewhat feisty at times, exclaimed indignantly that she'd taken a lot of persuading, he laughed. that's what they all say. [laughter] but they trap you in the end. [laughter] by then she realized that he was teasing her, and we all ended up of laughing together. he had apologized earlier for not coming to our wedding. instead, sending a message which contained these impish words to us newlyweds: but perhaps i'll be able to come next time. [laughter]

it was not just his towering stature, his courage and capacity to inspire that endeared nelson mandela to so many. despite being one of the world's most prominent statesmen, perhaps the most revered, he retaped his extraordinary humanity. when he was with you, you had all his attention. when he greeted you, his eyes never wandered even though he was surrounded by far more important people. whether you were a child, a hotel porter, a cleaner, a waiter or a junior staff member, he was interested in you, and he never forgot a friend. on the same occasion elizabeth met him in 2003, my parents were also present enjoying a' reunion. the conversation somehow turned to my ministerial driver whom he promptly summoned up. i was once a driver too, mandela told him, as they shook hands referring to the time in 1961-'62 when he was on the run underground, dubbed the black --

[inaudible] often moving about the country and in order to invite no attention, dressed as a chauffer, his wife in the back stereotypical in those days and a good form of disguise, that chauffer's uniform. an ordinarily combined with extraordinariness is not mandela's sole uniqueness. his capacity for forgiveness is what made him the absolutely critical figure first during secret negotiations in the late 1980s from prison with the afrikaner nationalist government and then after his release both in the transition and in healing a bitterly divided nation. which then brings me to his -- [inaudible] gandhi, kennedy, churchill, all iconic figures. the last for his inspirational wartime leadership, the first more so for being assassinated. yet today ask almost anybody